Poker Folding Out Of Turn

Once the flop is delivered you know 71 percent of your final hand. This lesson will focus on the turn, which produces 86 percent of your hand. Many poker pundits express the belief that the turn is the most difficult street to play in hold’em – so let’s explore some differences in how one might approach this street for improved results.

The turn card normally defines the hand. It is the card that makes most draws or the price to venture forth can become very expensive. While the turn can become tricky, especially in no-limit, if you are in with a quality holding it shouldn’t be that difficult unless the turn card adds a new dimension such as three suiting or three straightening the board. If you’re still in post flop you really need to have something – even if that something is just a plan.

  1. The applicable poker rule is: Verbal is binding. If you say 'fold' out of turn, you're folding. However, in a casino you will be told to 'please play in turn', although this is merely a suggestion in this particular hand, and will never be enforced. What will be enforced, is if you keep doing it, you may be asked to leave.
  2. A recreational player could be forgiven for not understanding the impact an out-of-turn fold would have on the situation. Soverel clearly knew very well the consequences of his fold, so even if it was a genuine mistake, it behooved him to be paying more attention to the action and taking more care in his actions, given the stakes involved.
Poker Folding Out Of Turn

Check out To fold, in turn, even though there is no bet facing the player. In some games this is considered a breach of the rules equivalent to folding out of turn. Check-raise Deceptive play whereby a player initially checks with the intention of raising should another player bet. See main article: check-raise.

The following are several elements that should command your attention on the turn.

Re-Assess Your Table Image

This is a good time to re-assess what you believe to be your current table image. If you have been playing a tight-aggressive game and have only shown solid hand values when called down, then if you’re being called by an equally solid player – it’s reasonable to put him on more than just air. Here is an example:

You limp from early position with and the flop comes . You make a semi-bluff bet with second pair and an opponent smooth calls. Now that same opponent bets into you on the turn. The most prudent course of action is to give that opponent credit for a better hand than pocket tens and fold. While some may opine that this is too tight a way to play, one should have top pair or better by the turn or at least a viable draw or they should probably be checking and folding.

While playing in this manner should keep you out of trouble, you need to be aware that your more observant opponents will see right through this and take advantage of your one dimensional play. In order to thwart this type of predatory behaviour you need to mix in some check raises so that your checks do not indicate that a bet on their part will automatically move you off your hand. Predictability is the sign of a weak player.

Drawing Hands

There are both the defensive and offensive aspects of drawing hands which simply means – are you on a draw or is your opponent? When you believe you currently have the best hand but believe your opponent is on a draw with one card to come, you need to make a bet. You should bet on the turn so as not to allow your opponent to draw for free. Obviously you need to make it mathematically incorrect for him to draw. Depending on what you perceive his draw to be, he has as few as four outs (inside straight draw) up to as many as fifteen outs (flush and open ended straight draw).

Not to bet on the turn is incorrect for two reasons – first, as mentioned, you should not allow him to draw for free and secondly, if you check now and the draw doesn’t come in you will not make any money by betting the river as he will probably muck his busted draw. So, bet to make your money now and hope the draw doesn’t arrive.

What if you are the one on the draw? If you’re getting the right price for your draw then you should obviously proceed. If you called on the flop with a drawing hand but missed on the turn then you’re probably facing a bet where the odds have gone up significantly. This is what tends to happen. If your opponent suspects you for a draw then there’s a good chance he’s going to make you pay for it. Many poker players make the mistake of calling on the flop by using the odds to make their draws with two cards to come, then fold to a big bet on the turn. If you find yourself in such situations with regularity then start avoiding this conundrum on the turn by using the odds for one card to come on the flop.

If you’re facing a wager that doesn’t supply you with the correct pot odds to call, then implied odds can sometimes be taken into consideration. The implied odds of a straight draw is usually higher than the implied odds of a flush draw. This is because many players freeze up when a third suited card lands on the board. A double belly buster straight draw has the highest implied odds due to its stealth nature. Since it is not an obvious draw but still has eight outs one should normally go to the river, especially if the board is not paired or triple suited.

Scare Cards

A scare card is one you don’t normally want to see. If there were two hearts on the flop and you have two black hole cards you certainly do not want to see another heart on the turn. But what if you do? Well, now is the time to put the knowledge you’ve accumulated about your opponents to work. If an opponent now bets into two or more players, then you should probably fold as he would realize it’s too likely someone will call so he must have a real hand. If on the other hand this opponent is known to be tricky, loose or generally enamoured with bluffing then a call or even a raise could be in order.

Also, aside from player tendencies always be aware of the odds the pot is offering to help guide your decision. Personally, I would rather use a scare card to my own advantage than be put on the defensive. Remember this – if the card in question is scary looking to you it may well be downright intimidating to your opponent.

Floating the flop

Folding Poker Tables For Sale

To float the flop is to call a continuation bet with a weak hand in position with the intent of pushing your opponent off his hand on the turn. This strategy is based upon the knowledge that most pre-flop hands do not improve on the flop. Many times after showing pre-flop aggression, players feel compelled to follow up with a continuation bet in hopes of taking the pot down. When that continuation bet is met with a flat call it signals to the better that his opponent may well have a hand worth an investment. When due to that concern the turn is checked the “floater” then bets and takes down the pot.

The float play is a successful strategy that works due to the fact that most holdings do not connect with the flop and epitomizes the saying that top flight players tend to play their opponents, not their cards. While there are some turn cards that should cause you to abandon the play, don’t get scared when it’s time to act. Of course, there is the inherent risk of running into a strong starting hand or a ragged flop which was custom made for a hand. However, poker is full of risks and while the meek may well inherit the earth they don’t make very good poker players.

Firing the Second Barrel

Firing the second barrel is the most effective way to thwart an opponent who was floating the flop. Certainly having your continuation bet called will give you pause and make you wonder what your opponent is holding. The strategy of the float relies upon this concern and many players then hesitate to bet again or fire the second barrel. If you put yourself in the floater’s shoes, firing the second barrel is enough to make him give up his plan of pushing you off your hand with a bet. Firing the second barrel is normally the antidote to the float. Normally is not totally as, mentioned above, you could be stepping into a slow play trap but as we all know there are no money back guarantees in poker.

Both floating the flop and firing the second barrel should not be done blindly and as your default move. They should be used when supported by knowledge of your opponent’s tendencies for best results.

Conclusion

If you find yourself somewhat stranded on the turn without much of a hand you are probably playing “wish poker” which is to say, too loose. Many times after an aggressive pre-flop betting round and more betting on the flop players put the brakes on at the turn when their optimism wanes. If you’re in position, this can be an excellent time to pick up the pot with a well timed bet.

As in all of poker, it is essential to gain an understanding of how your opponents play the game. Does your opponent(s) only enter the fray with quality hands or do they enjoy being aggressive with high cards and then commit themselves to remain aggressive right through to the river?

The turn may well have been given its name because at this juncture in the hand a player’s optimism can TURN into the stark reality that he is bringing up the rear. The turn becomes decision time. Generally if you’re in on the turn you’ve punched your through ticket to play the river. A busted draw would be the exception.

In closing I would like to share one of my favorite poker expressions which may sum up how to address decision making at this critical stage of the hand… when in doubt, get out! A dollar saved is a dollar earned.

Related Lessons

By Tom 'TIME' Leonard

Tom has been writing about poker since 1994 and has played across the USA for over 40 years, playing every game in almost every card room in Atlantic City, California and Las Vegas.

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Acting out of turn is obviously not something you want to do in a live poker game. Mistakes happen though, and there should be rules to follow when there’s a situation like this. In my experience the rules for betting out of turn will vary from room to room. It’s best to ask some questions if this happens so you can make an informed decision based on the rules of the poker room you are playing.

Folding Poker Table

That being said, most poker rooms will abide by TDA rules (Tournament Directors Association). However don’t assume that they do follow TDA rules. The best thing to do in my opinion is to ask the floor what the ruling is. Be specific and ask them, “What happens if I check? – if I bet? – if I raise ?” This will make it easier for you to make the correct decision.

The following is taken directly from the poker TDA rules site – 2013 Rules Version 1.1, Released Aug. 11, 2013:

38: Action Out of Turn (OOT)

A: Action out of turn is subject to penalty and is binding if the action to the OOT player has not changed. A check, call or fold does not change action. If action changes, the OOT bet is not binding and is returned to the OOT player who has all options including: calling, raising, or folding. An OOT fold is binding.

B: A player skipped by OOT action must defend his right to act. If there is reasonable time and the skipped player has not spoken up by the time substantial action (Rule 35) OOT occurs to his left, the OOT action is binding. The floor will be called to render a decision on how to treat the skipped hand.

What Does Acting Out of Turn Mean?

So what exactly does this mean? The easiest way is for me to illustrate in an example.

In a recent WPT final table, heads up, at the Venice Grand Prix in Italy there was such a situation where knowing the rules and asking the right questions would have gained you some chips. It was heads up with Rocco Palumbo and Marcello Montagner. This is what went down on the river.

The board read Kc 6d 7c 8d 4s and there was 530K in the pot. Montagner, who was last to act on the river bet out of turn 100K holding 9c 8h. Palumbo was holding the winning straight with 6h 5c. Palumbo decided to bet out 400K. Since the action to the OOT player had changed now with that 400K bet Montagner was allowed to take back his 100K bet and allowed to call, raise or fold. Montagner threw his hand into the muck.

If Palumbo had taken the time to think about this and ask the floor the right questions he may have instead opted to check raise in this situation. If Palumbo had checked this then Montagner’s 100K bet would stand since there was no change in the action. Then Palumbo would have the chance to fold, call, or raise the bet! This would have at least guaranteed him an extra 100K in chips.

Folding Poker Table Tops

Another example I have is one that I had while playing at The Orleans Casino. I was first to act on the river in a 4 way pot, and I had not done anything yet, but 2nd, 3rd, and 4th person check behind me quickly. I was not sure of the ruling so I called the floor person down to verify and he told me that the hand is over and I would not have a chance to bet. Initially I had thought about betting the river as a bluff, but that opportunity was taken away from me. I thought if this was true then it can be exploited by starting a checking train out of turn in order to hold off a bet on the river. It seemed strange to me that this was a normal ruling, but after reading the TDA rules I see that it is actually a standard ruling.

Let’s look at it a bit more closely. In my hand it is relevant to check out rule 38 B and then refer to rule 35 as taken from pokerTDA.com:

35: Substantial Action

Substantial Action is either: A) any two actions in turn, at least one of which puts chips in the pot (i.e. any 2 actions except 2 checks or 2 folds); OR B) any combination of three actions in turn (check, bet, raise, call, or fold). See also Rules 34 and 38.

From this rule I can understand that the 3 checks out of turn behind me on the river falls into the “combination of three actions in turn” Since I must “defend my right to act” otherwise the out of turn action is binding. My problem with this is that I did not have “reasonable time” to act before there was substantial action to my left. The players quickly checked one after the other and I had no time to stop it.

In the end though, the floor should have been called down to make a decision on how my skipped hand could be played, and they ruled that it would be played as if I had checked and asked me to showdown my hand. I lost the hand, but a person to my left said, “hey the rule saved you some chips this time.” I’m not sure if that’s true and whether or not one of them would have called my river bet, but I did learn something new in a situation that I had not been in before, and this has made me more alert to out of turn action behind me.

Folding Out Of Turn In Poker

Angle Shooters and Cheating

Poker Rules Folding Out Of Turn

The reason why these rules are in place is because they want to avoid people who are purposely acting out of turn to angle shoot. Intentional angle shooters will be punished if they act out of turn to gain an advantage. The poker rooms will not tolerate this behavior. Usually an angle shooter will raise out of turn in order to gain information. Raising will give the angle shooter the most information since they can now see the others reactions to the raise whereas a call or check would not get such a reaction. Angle shooting is frowned upon, and the rooms will kick you out for repeat offenses.

In conclusion, it’s easiest to remember that in most casinos acting out of turn is binding, as long as the action before it does not change. Even still, there are casinos out there that run on different rules so the best thing to do when this happens is to call the floor and ask for a ruling. This way you will know what the rule is for sure, and have that for future reference.

Image courtesy of Benny Mazur on Flickr